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In Egypt, I think I saw on Twitter that you were doing work with the Palestinian Ghazawi survivors from the war in Egypt. Maybe you can start by telling us about their situation and what you've been doing with them, and then maybe we can go backwards a bit.

Sure, yeah. So, thank you for having me. I'm based in DC since three years, but I've been back and forth to Palestine, even in the last three years, specifically to Ramallah and the West Bank. And with this war starting, my life took a turn. I'm no longer focused on my academic writing or thinking or trying to publish stuff. Most of my time has been trying to analyze, but even more than that, trying to help in humanitarian level. The catastrophe is so hard on everyone in Gaza, but it was also hard on my family.

I don't know if you know, but I lost my sister and my father. And the main reason why I came to Cairo is because my mom and brother, who survived the war, moved here, so I came to take care of them. But at the same time, I spent like most of my time visiting families that I know and that I don't know here, hearing their stories, thinking, obviously, as someone with an academic background, I was thinking, oh, maybe I write something, but I don't think I have the mental or physical capability to do it.

But I figured that the stories can be documented in a film or something. So we conducted over 15 interviews, until now, long interviews of people who really endured unbelievable suffering. We interviewed people who were bombed, and the entire family died in the bombing, except them and their injured.

Interviewed women who had to see their houses looted, and their underwear and private stuff were used in a really disgusting manner by the Israeli army. The goal is to try to document all these things for the West to see. Another angle that we tried to highlight that not a lot of people talk about is the small Christian community in Gaza. And what happened in Gaza, with the bombing of the church, is really the second biggest massacre of Christians in the Middle East. I mean, the first being in Cairo, right after the revolution. But the second really is the bombardment of the church, where over 19 Christians were killed.

So we also interviewed people who were at the church and were taken from under the Pope. So that's sort of what I'm doing here. Part is humanitarian aid, trying to help, the other part is documenting the system at least.

Maybe you could explain to us how the, obviously the incredible suffering, but also the journey, I can imagine that your journey was extremely difficult and painful for the people who did manage to arrive to Egypt. Maybe you can tell us a bit about that, how they arrived, and what are the conditions right now in Egypt?

Yeah, absolutely. To start with the beginning, people couldn’t leave for the first few weeks of the war. There were no crossing the borders, it was completely shut. And then the borders were opened, they were opened under very harsh conditions.

Conditions such as you have to be, I mean, there are a lot of people who are injured and sick in Gaza, so it's not like anyone who's sick or injured can leave, but only the few who get referral. They were able to move to Egypt, but those who got a referral medically or whatever, they moved to Egypt and they were placed in hospital. They're not allowed to leave their rooms. They're literally living in prison inside Egypt because technically they don't have a visa, according to the Egyptian law.

And that's one category, and they're the minority, but the majority are those who came with visas. But to get yourself on the list, you had to go through a private company in Egypt, and you had to wait a really long time.Sometimes it takes a month, sometimes it takes two months, depends on how many people are there. And you have to pay a certain amount of money that is quite high. Probably all of you guys have seen the surge in the usage of GoFundMe by Gazans.

It's because people didn't have the money. I mean, some families obviously could afford it, but the majority of Gazans didn't have the money to pay such a high price. And people raised the money, had to pay, and then those in the south, their movement from the south to Rafah crossing border before it was shut down, obviously in May, was smooth, relatively.

But those who were in the north of Gaza, the journey of having to walk in, quote-unquote, “safe roads” that are actually not safe, where you could easily get killed in it, quite horrible. And you have to walk over seven kilometers in a road that is completely destroyed and between the rubble and drones with captors that literally have a gun and can shoot you if you move around. It's a quite terrifying experience.

I had this one woman telling me that as she was walking with her 17 years old brother who was injured, he got tired during the way and he stopped and he said, because they were like carrying him, and he would walk over, then he said, just move on and leave me here. Just let me die and move. He couldn't walk more. And he's seen how he became an obstacle to the survival of the family. It's really horrific stories of literally people have to put their personal survival sometimes even above their other members of the family.

And it's a very hard decision to make. And a lot of people really died on the way as they were walking from north to south.

Khalil, because, of course, the Israeli army took control of the Rafah crossing point. Are people still managing to be coming to Egypt, or is it completely impossible right now?

No, no, it's impossible right now. Since Israel controlled the Rafah crossing border, it has been completely closed. But not only closed, the Israelis have changed the status quo in the sense that they burned down the entire buildings of the crossing.

They destroyed it. It was a very clear message. I mean, obviously, it's part of the collective punishment that Gaza has been experiencing for decades, actually, but especially after October 7th, complete destruction of the border.

There seemed to be a very clear message from Israel that they want to change the status quo in which there is one port that is not controlled by Israel, which was the Rafah crossing border. Do you have any idea of how many people have left Gaza from the beginning of the war? According to the Palestinian embassy here in Egypt, the estimation is something around 100,000 people are already in Egypt. But we have to take into account that all of these people come legally on a visa. Once they arrive to Egypt, they are illegal technically, and they don't have any visa because your visa is only valid for 30 days. So you've got no residency. You can't work. There is no way to get an income.

So I spend my time, and it's not my work to do this, but because they're my people, trying to figure out how to get food or medicine to certain families or how to get their kids at schools, because legally you can't get them to schools because they're not really residents here. So a really tough situation. And there is obviously from the Egyptian side a political dilemma here about the Palestinians, because if you want to give them refugee status and settle them here, you're sort of messing with the whole idea of going back to Gaza.

You're sort of playing the card of the ethnic cleansing. So there's a really difficult political dilemma here where you feel in a sense that the rights and the humanitarian conditions of refugees, which are guaranteed by international law and humanitarian law as well, clashes with the interests of the national, or not the national, not the nationalist group only, or nationalist people, but with the even peoplehood of Palestinians. Because once you allow that, you're literally playing into the card of Israel, which their goal is ultimately to completely dismantle the Palestinian national project.

And are Egyptian population taking care of Gazans, are they mobilized with what is arriving to Palestinian refugees arriving in Egypt?

Overall, I would say tjat there is an incredible solidarity from the Egyptian people toward the Palestinians. Anyone walks in the street, even without saying anything, can notice the love and the flags everywhere, the signs, the support for the Palestinians.

Once you say you're Palestinian, you're welcomed, etc. Civil society is trying to do as much as they can. But generally, Egypt has a very weak civil society. And it has been weakened more and more after the Arab Spring. So you could notice that even with this, there is a limit to how far you can go without annoying the government here. And obviously, these stuffs are looked at by the government with suspicions, although they don't mind helping the Palestinians, but they are worried that mobilization to help can lead to other political moves, and that's not something that the Egyptian government can tolerate.

So it's a really slippery slope, and it's a challenging thing. But overall, I would say that the Egyptian people in general are quite very positive toward the Palestinians. And interestingly, because at this point, Egypt is really experiencing a surge in anti-immigrant sentiment generally, against Sudanese, even a little bit against Syrians, but it's not reaching the Palestinians yet.

Like, very, very, very rare, but the Palestinians are sort of hold in a different standard from an Egyptian point of view.

Thank you, Khalil. I don't want to dwell too much into, of course, suffering, but I'm a bit, of course, scared of what might be the, not only the health, but also the general situation of Palestinian refugees coming to Egypt. Can you maybe tell us a bit more about that? They are survivors of an enormous catastrophe. How does it play into their current life and condition?

How the catastrophe plays on people's life. It's obviously, you could see almost like physically how everyone is traumatized. You could see it in their faces. And you could feel it with little things such as when they hear a helicopter or a private jet in the sky, that tend to be a commercial since you live in Cairo and there's an airport here. It triggers all sorts of emotions of what they have experienced in Gaza, which usually jets are only, of course, that are there to bomb them, right? So you could feel it, you could see all sorts of pain.

And the trauma is very real. But to be honest, I also was rather surprised by the amount of resilience that these people are having. Almost every Palestinian I met here, they're not only talking about their trauma and the pain, although they do, they're more talking about what's for tomorrow, about the future, about building their life, about people who are younger, about going to school and finishing the few years they had.

Those who had businesses are thinking how to rebuild their companies, whether it's here, Gaza, or to resettle somewhere else. And I was really inspired by the resilience of these people.

Perhaps a question more personally, because you spoke highly about the death of members of your family. And would you like to go back to this tragedy, both on a personal and collective level in this interview? Describe circumstances of the death. Is there any also in global, is there any information that you can obtain as families? How do survivors also deal with the disappearance and death? Is there any administration to register this tragedy and how our families are informed, both in Egypt and in Gaza?

No, that's a good question. Yeah, I mean, generally there are the numbers published by the Gaza Health Ministry, but I don't think the Gaza Health Ministry has been capable of really keeping up with the amount of deaths and killing since maybe in November, or around November. I think mid-November, we experienced really a collapse in the health system in Gaza, including Minister of Health. So I'm not sure how much numbers they're keeping, but they're trying their best. People are informed usually through connections.

In the Arab world, families stay families, they don't leave each other, and thus another member would inform you of what happened. The other part is that the numbers we have on Gaza is only the number of direct killings by Israel, meaning it's the numbers of when bombardments happen and people are dying, but it doesn't take into account people who are dying from lack of food, lack of medicine, or sometimes even direct prevention of medicine. And I'll give you the example of my late father, who passed away at the church on December 21st.

It was a sacrament stance where just two days before, three days before, the Israeli snipers shot two women at the church, inside the church, and the Israeli tanks were literally on the gates of the church where my father was sheltering. And at that time literally there were no hospitals in Gaza City, the entire hospitals were destroyed, and they were not allowing ambulances to work. The day before, an elderly Christian woman was shot in the leg by Israeli sniper.

She was left to bleed for two days, and literally the cats and dogs ate part of her body while she's alive. And then she was left to die. My father, we don't know if he had a heart attack, he's like 65, not really that old, had either a heart attack or panic attack, we're not sure because he was at the church.

And we couldn't get him medicine, we couldn't get him the ambulance, the Israeli tanks were literally on the gate of the church. He was left to die there, similar to the two Christian women who were shot there and left to die as well as in the church. So, there is also the indirect killing that's happened.

In the case of my little sister, Lara, she was walking from the north to the south and caught the same road back in April, just three months ago. And on the road she collapsed. We don't know what happened to her. We don't know if it was fear, we don't know if it's a heart attack, we don't know if it's the heat. She walked almost six kilometers, and she had one more, because they don't allow cars there. It was a really, really hot day, temperature was high, and she just collapsed there.

And obviously the Israelis could have helped in one second, allowed a car, an ambulance, or they themselves, they could have taken her. She would be alive, but they did not, and she died. That would say that also all this indirect killing is not being accounted for, but this is part of the Israeli war on Gaza, that I kill you directly and I kill you indirectly, but in both ways, I am killing you.

In my mind, there is no military justification for such a quote-unquote “safe road” that is willingly destroyed, clearly, by the Israelis. That is really terrifying. If you look behind you on this road as you're walking south, you'll be shot by the drones.

And someone like my sister was terrified. She didn't want to grab her bottle of water after it fell on the ground as she was walking, because she was afraid that they'll shoot her, as they've done with other people. So, you can imagine all this sort of indirect killing that Israel is practicing on the Palestinians.

Did the Christians have been specifically attacked since the beginning, or as any other Palestinian ?

Over 70% of the Christians' houses are destroyed. The compound of the oldest church in Gaza, St. Perforius Church, was bombed, and 19 people were killed there, and countless injured people. Christian homes were burned. Actually, interestingly, some women from Gaza, Christian women who we interviewed, described that they purposefully broke the cross inside the home and burned the pictures of Jesus in a message that we really don't care. But as I said, people were sniped in the Catholic Church, and what Pope Francis himself declared as terrorism.

That's the words Pope Francis described to describe the attack on the church. And I have countless stories of Christians who were beaten up or arrested by the army, and they knew they were Christians, and they didn't really care about that part. So yes, the Christians suffered really heavily.

I mean, I would say, because we're a very small population, too, we're about a thousand people in Gaza, yet still we were harmed that much. Over 4% of the Christian population were killed by the Israelis. This is direct killing, not including the indirect killing.

Khalil, building upon that, because I know that obviously you've been very vocal about what's been happening to the Christian community in Gaza, what is your analysis of this targeting of the Christians in Gaza by the Israeli army, knowing that, of course, they enjoy a huge amout of support by Christian Evangelists in the United States. How do you understand this dismay of Christian life in Gaza by the Israeli army?

I don't think they are willingly targeting of Christians in Gaza. I think they are willingly targeting of all Palestinians, not distinguishing the Christians. So I don't think there is necessarily an anti-Christian sentiment among Israelis, although there is, like, among some right-wing groups in Israel who also participate in the army. Yes, it's very known, they have extreme religious ideas which also lead them to hate Christians specifically for historical reasons, theological. But that's not, I think, the driving factor.

The big issue is they're targeting all Palestinians without any distinguishing. The Israeli military, at the very first three weeks, at least the first three weeks of the war, as we know now from investigation, used literally AI machines to generate targets. And it's quite probable that the AI machine produced the target of the church.

That's how reckless they are and how worthless Palestinians' life to them is. Literally, an AI machine decides and then you bombard an entire area. And that's, I think, how the church target was generated. But besides that, the Christian houses were bombed, the Orthodox cultural center was bombed, the Holy Family Catholic school was bombed, the Caritas was damaged when they entered the refugee camp.

I'm not aware of any Christian institution in Gaza that wasn't bombed or partially destroyed until now.

How about the solidarity between the Palestinians? Are there Christians who are involved in the armed struggle under Hamas or in the administration or what remains of this administration, civil administration in Gaza?

We're not involved. We're not involved with Hamas at all. We take a stance that is quite secular Palestinian nationalist that has been the stance of the Palestinian Christians. Thus, we have no one involved, nor in the administration, civil administration of Gaza, nor in the military. Before Hamas existed, obviously, in the Palestinian Authority, a lot of Christians were involved and still involved in the West Bank. And even prior to the Palestinian Authority establishment, when more left-wing groups, secular nationalists, or even communists and others existed in Palestine that committed acts of both armed resistance and sometimes terrorism, yes, Christians were quite involved and actually most influential. The Jabhat al-Shaabiya, PFLP, was established by George Habbash. Hawatmeh was Christian. Christians were all over.

You can see it in the national movement. But since the rise of Hamas in the 90s and 2000s, I think the Christians start stepping back from the national arena, because when you Islamize the public square, you leave no room for religious minority and for the diversity. I don't think that the Christians appreciated Hamas' approach to politics.

Thank you, Khalil. Maybe this can also bring us to what has been your feeling of, more broadly, the Palestinian society as a whole, in Gaza, in the West Bank, in Israel, faced with the genocide, with what has been unfolding in Gaza since October?

It's a good question. I think there is a sense of deep hopelessness and pain, for sure, over what's happening. But I think the most interesting piece of it to me is how pacified the Palestinian people have become. You think of the entire stereotype in the West that we're savages or primitive people who thrive on blood or whatever. Obviously, it's useless to say it's all racist representations.

Truly, the people in the West Bank haven't risen up for Gaza. We haven't even seen significant protests in the West Bank standing against the genocide in Gaza. In a way, you see that this is a pacifization that has been going on for years.

Obviously, there is a huge oppression since October 7. Thousands of people were arrested by Israel. But I don't think it's only this oppression. There's something of a deep pacifization and fragmentation that this apartheid system has imposed on the Palestinians.

If you look even at the geography, everything in the way they literally fragmented the society is a mean to prevent the collective action of protest, peaceful or whatever. And then they leave you only to violent actions. But even violent actions in the West Bank hasn't been significant to the scale of what's happening in Gaza, that is the genocide.

Four years were really put on the corner, because their identity is complicated, too. We cannot deny that in the last 75 years, the Palestinian citizens of Israel built somewhat of an element of the Israeli identity. Not that they became fully Israelis, but they have the citizenship and they have the friendships and they have the connections.

They understand many times that they still live as a second-class citizen, but they do have these connections. And then when October 7 happened and they had to see some of them had friends who were slaughtered, I think it was quite shocking for Palestinians inside Israel. It wasn't hard for them to accept it.

So that, at the beginning, made them silent, relatively. But beside that, the repression, if you say anything inside Israel as a Palestinian, you would disappear. But we start seeing that as time moves now, the surveys show that they're returning to their critical, obviously, views, but they're not able to speak up.

So I think the most, I don't know how to say it, but the highlight of the status of the Palestinians today is how fragmented we are. And I am afraid that the national movement within Palestine is slowly dying. And that's something that scares me.

I mean, we've got to be honest. Yes, the solidarity movement with the Palestinians is well and alive and increasing in a way that we've never seen before. But the national movement of the Palestinian people today is weaker and more fragmented than ever before.

Just about this question, this fragmentation for you, is there is some link also with the migration issue and with the exile issue? And people are also, and elites also, are pushed to escape and to go abroad. Is there some links with that or not necessarily? No, that's their question.

No, absolutely, this contributes to it. But I think the biggest thing is that we are extremely polarized between Hamas and Fatah for so long. And each of the parties literally is going after their own interests. And I'll give you an example.

I mean, one has to ask the question, and now in Gaza I start asking the question, after at least what we know of 40,000 people who were killed in Gaza in this war, people have been massacred. We have the right to ask the question, why did Hamas start this war, what they were trying to achieve? Now, we all agree that armed resistance, as long as it's carried properly, is a legitimate right. I mean, there is no dispute about it.

I do support armed resistance if it doesn't target civilians, et cetera. But the question comes, why at this moment, what we are trying to achieve ? Maybe they were trying to achieve something good, but then when you look at the kind of deals that they are talking about to implementing in Gaza today, you realize that not only we didn't achieve anything, we're actually stepping back. But in the Palestinian political culture today, those who support Hamas tell you that you can't question that. You cannot even talk about it.

You should just shut up. The Palestinian Authority, on the other hand, for 20 years, they've been in deep security collaboration with Israel. Literally, they arrest people and give them to Israel. And Israel is insulting them every day, violating their sovereignty. They don't allow the tax money and so on. And we are not allowed to even question why the Palestinian Authority does that.

So it's really a fragmented situation. And when you see Hamas in Gaza, willing to even have an alternative government that today, according to Washington Post, Hamas sort of agreed to have semi-government connected to the PA, but not really the Palestinian Authority, governing Gaza for a ceasefire. It's quite shocking for me because this only deepened the fragmentation of the Palestinians.

This fulfilled the Likud and Netanyahu's dream of completely separating Gaza and the West Bank. And it deeply, deeply stepped back to the Palestinian national movement. But the question, why are all these actors acting this way? The answer is simple.

They're after their own party interest. Hamas is not negotiating for the Palestinians in Gaza. The truth is, they're not.

They're negotiating for Hamas' survival. And the PA and the West Bank have also lost legitimacy, and they're only negotiating for their survival as well. That's the sad part.

Khalil, would you have the same analysis of all, even the, let's say, minor, and it's all the really the political factions in the Palestinian scene. Would you say the same of all different factions, whether leftists, whether Jabhat al-Shaabiya, you mentioned Jabhat al-Shaabiya earlier, or the difference, Samidoun, all the different actors, would you have the same analysis?

I just don't think they're significant. I mean, they died a long time ago. I mean, how much Jabhat represent in Palestine, like two or three percent, right? How much does Islamic Jihad, the two actors we have today, those who do really have a mission of state building, who have ability to mobilize, to institutionalize, is Fatah and Hamas. We have to be honest with ourselves, right? And they're both after their own interests. That's the unfortunate reality.

But why do you think Hamas did what they did in October 7th?

I think Hamas had, there are two scenarios in my mind of what Hamas was expecting.

A, they were expecting a revolution that will follow in the West Bank, and that this revolution will lead to the replacement of the Palestinian Authority once and for all, which was always the goal of Hamas. Even prior to the establishment of Hamas, the Islamists, or the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza, really established this entire Hamas thing as a counterpart to the PLO, more than to Israel, because from their point of view, they were scared of some sort of Algerian model of repression toward Islamists, or Egyptian, or Jordanian. They were really scared, and they reported it.

So their number one thing in their state building project is they have to be in charge. They really believe in themselves, and that they are the more capable party to even negotiate with Israel. So they wanted that, and they were shocked that it failed, because at that time, it was a perfect opportunity, by the way, because in terms of legitimacy for the PA, it was really low.

Pinkveer and Smotrych were really violating the PA day and night. So in their thinking and calculation, it might be that they thought this would bring about the PA collapse. And obviously, they weren't thinking that the response from Israel would be that harsh.

They thought that when you bring this amount of soldiers as hostages, Israel will negotiate quickly. And I don't think they understood the nature of the Israeli government. That's one scenario.

The second scenario that we also can induct from listening to different interviews, especially with military leaders, and a military spokesperson, Mohammad Daif, too, and from Hezbollah, is that they were really convinced that what's so-called Wahdat al-Sahat, the unity of, I don't know how to say Sahat, fields, let's say, or borough fields, of the Iranian proxies, that they will come to sink them. I think a lot were thinking that Hezbollah and Houthis will get involved fully. I mean, they're involved right now, but they're not involved fully.

And I think Hamas was counting that when things get really crazy from north and south, et cetera, that Israel will come to terms with negotiating with Hamas over hostages deals, et cetera. And at the same time, this would bring about a collapse in the West Bank where Hamas can fit the vacuum. So that's my scenarios.

Right now, Hamas saw that things went different direction. And I think since the second month, in November, they were in a state of shock over what's happening. And until now, they start realizing what's happening.

And that's why they are okay right now with a government to control Gaza that is not the PA or Hamas that will coordinate with them, because I think from their point of view, they think that they can overthrow this government at some point and return to normal. But the one thing they're against still is a full Palestinian authority control over Gaza. And Israel shares this goal, which in a way, I mean, the Israelis and Hamas are perfect partner in preventing a unity of the Palestinian people.

Not to say that the PA is the capable government that should come around. I'm not saying that. But I think a unified government between the West Bank and Gaza could have been the only good outcome out of this war.

But unfortunately, it looks very clear right now that even this wouldn't happen. And from my point of view, I don't think that the Gaza war will be remembered well in history from our point of view as Palestinians. Although there will be people who claim it's a victory.


I have read somewhere that the Netanyahu government's also having the idea that they could give Gaza, of course, to military occupation, but also to family clans in Gaza. And maybe you could tell us a bit about this.

So for so long, the Israelis wanted around this idea. And Satanu argues that it is encountering the people of Banach and Begin tried to establish so-called religious leagues in the World Bank and Gaza. Tribal leaders or sheikhs, Palestinians, of course, and they ended up being killed by the Palestinian resistance and others were really completely isolated socially.

The idea of the tribes or clans can't control Gaza is not a new idea. I'm right in government since Banach and Begin in the 80s have floated this idea where it's literally saying that tribes or what's so-called religious leagues at that time can control the Palestinians right there at first. But it didn't end well.

It ended with, , the Palestinians isolating these members completely. And they tried to repeat the same thing in Gaza. Now, interestingly, the type of tribes or clans they tried to work with, ones that have a history of weapons smuggling and drugs, but also one of the clans had a history of connection to ISIS.

Jihadist Salafists. Willing to work with the Dogma clan. It was known to have given al-Qaeda to ISIS in 2015.

But they also failed because Hamas and the other groups, I mean, the people obviously isolated the complete, but also Hamas killed numbers of them and attacked them. And I think at this point, well, their intelligence told it all the time. And people would never accept that.


OK, so the idea that clans and tribes could run Palestinian affairs is not a new idea. It was used by Menachem Begin in the 80s, where they established what's so-called Rawabat al-Qura, the village's leagues, which was basically a bunch of traditional leaders, sheikhs, imams, et cetera, running the Palestinians affairs. And they were surprised that they gained zero legitimacy.

They were socially isolated. In some cases, even Palestinians used violence against them to put them in their place. In Gaza, the Israelis floated the same idea since the beginning of the war.

And interestingly, they tried to use tribes that are rather quite dangerous, ones that were working in drug dealing, that were working in weapons smuggling. Even more dangerously, one of the clans, the Dogmosh clan, is a non-associated with ISIS and Jihadist Salafists. In 2015, the leader of the clan, Motaz Dogmosh, gave allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi of ISIS.

Yet still, Israel considered these people to be the best option to run Gaza. However, people did not obviously accept their legitimacy whatsoever in Gaza, because they're non-thugs. Second is Hamas and other resisting groups attacked them violently and killed some of them.

And I think right now Israel have learned their lessons well that this wouldn't work. And that's something that their own military intelligence have been telling them for months to the Israeli government, that this wouldn't work.


Building upon that, because obviously we've seen, I think maybe you can confirm or not, but a complete collapse of the civil administration in Gaza since October. So how people in Gaza are preventing, as you say, thugs or mafias or this kind of things to happen?

Yeah, sure. So people try to defend themselves by themselves. There are a lot of guns in Gaza right now.Hamas established small groups. They don't work as police, but they have guns, they have masks. And obviously there are no prison systems in Gaza or something.

But they will just, for example, like get someone who's still, they would like, in a way that I think is barbaric, they would like start like wiping them in the middle of the street while they're topless, write on them, , shame them socially, throw them in the middle of the ground or something. They also used another method where people who really commit crimes or really big things, they would just bring them, tie them, and then shoot them in their legs. And it's a practice that Hamas has been using since 2007 against political dissent.

But this time it's the first time against, , thieves, etc. So this kind of social order is what Hamas is trying to restore. But it's still challenging and it's still not fully up there.

I don't know if the question is wise, but we've talked about what you, in your opinion, the goal of Hamas with the 7th of October. And now, in your opinion, the aim of the Israeli government, the aim of this war, is it complete destruction, new Nakba, or a new political order? Or, I don't know, maybe it's not a good question, but... I think, no, it's a good question.

I do think that the Israelis were really meaning new Nakba at the beginning. They wanted a full ethnic cleansing of Gaza. To them, every war is an opportunity, especially for this type of right-wing extremists in the government. Because every war proposes the same opportunity that 48 has proposed to them, that is to get rid of more Palestinians.

At the very core of the Zionist project has been the idea of maximum land with as less Palestinians or Arabs as possible, as they say. To them, the war provided the perfect opportunity to ethnic cleanse Gaza. Now, the truth is they were shocked by the Egyptian rejection of opening the border whatsoever.

And they were thinking that they can force Egypt to do it, or they can buy Egypt through IMF and other means. And they were rather shocked that the Egyptians were quite resilient on that regard. And so after that, they figured we can't do anything about it, and we cannot really get rid of the Palestinians in Gaza.

And I think they moved to the second phase, which is obviously trying to limit Hamas's power as much as possible. But I don't think, from my point of view, I don't think PP is interested in actually getting rid of Hamas. He needs them to keep playing.

He just needs them weak, and they can't pose any challenge to him. But he wants to devastate Gaza. I mean, even if the war stops tomorrow, for the next five years, the PP will leave Gaza by hundreds of thousands.

Because it's devastating. There are no schools, there are no universities, there are no medical care. There are no infrastructure, no electricity, no water.

So if you devastate the situation, you create the conditions needed for immigration. And tomorrow, if the border of Gaza is open and the war is over, I think hundreds of thousands of people would leave. Same way, in the last 10 years, despite the siege, a lot of people left.

Over 600,000 people left. Now, you don't feel it because Gaza has one of the highestfertility rates in the world, actually. So there are always new kids, and they rise, and we don't really notice.

But the thread remains, there are a lot of people leaving. I mean, look at places like Greece, that have thousands of Palestinians from Gaza. Or Belgium, out of all places, has a lot of people from Gaza. So that's an unfortunate trajectory.

Is there any possibility for Palestinians from Gaza to go and establish in the Defa, in the West Bank? Is it possible somehow?

No, it's impossible. I lived in the West Bank for 10 years. I moved from Gaza 2010, lived in Ramallah for 11 years. 11 years I was considered, quote-unquote, illegal by the Israeli military. And when the war happened, they started arresting people and put them in what I would consider concentration camps, even though it's in the West Bank.

So even if you make it, that's a miracle. It's a very low chance to get the permit for one week to go, and then you stay illegally. It's impossible.

And you would think, the international community would have pushed since day one of the war that, okay, you want to go get rid of Hamas, open a safe road to the West Bank, which is part of our own country, right, according to international law. But no one even dared to speak of it, as if the word submits to the will of Israel that the West Bank is part of Israel. The truth is that the world kind of agrees to that.

No one talks about the West Bank as if it's part of the same continuous territory. If they were, on day two, they would say, okay, move Palestinians to refugee camps in the West Bank, and this will guarantee that Israel sends them back to Gaza, by the way, because they're not interested in more demography in the West Bank. But no one talked about it.

No one dared to, which shows how submissive, obviously, especially the Americans, to the Israeli regime.

Maybe building up on that, because this is a question, a dilemma, I think, us in the Arab world, even in Europe, have been facing, because when you think of the scale of destruction in Gaza, it's a dilemma on what we should hope and ask for the people in Gaza. Should they be rescued and led, as you say, to places where there are hospitals and therefore, but this is ethnic cleansing, right, obviously.But is this, for instance, asking that the Palestinians in Gaza should be in the West Bank, because this is part of their country? Is this a reasonable and strong political claim that you would like people in the world to work for? Is it something that you wish for?

I think freedom of movement is a human right, should have been there since day one. This is not a question. But no one should be forced to leave anywhere.But the main ask of the Palestinian people, I do think that the struggle in Gaza is connected to the entire struggle of Palestine. Unless the entire occupation ends and it's resolved, there will be another Gaza. If it's not in Gaza, it might happen in the West Bank, etc.

The root cause of the problem is the Israeli occupation. And I think, and I wish that they, , I was actually even, obviously support ceasefire and all of that, but I was even annoyed that the entire focus since day one has been about ceasefire, when I think that this long should be in the occupation since day one. And I think that we should have mobilized, not under the word of ceasefire, but under the word of in the occupation.

I think the two parties that are interested in ceasefire only without deal, obviously everyone wants ceasefire, is the Israeli left, who are not really that left. , they just want a ceasefire and then go back to status quo and live God and God peacefully. And Hamas, who want to just survive in Gaza and continue as an assistant.


The first one, about this question of ethnicization. The discourse of Netanyahu is about civilization of Jewish Christian against Muslim civilization.

And what you are saying is completely... Yeah, and for you, question about Israel's colonial practice in Gaza before 7 October. For you, what was the most shocking thing experienced by Gazan and especially by the Christian in Gaza in particular? And similarly, were there any Hamas laws or practices that distinguished between Muslim and Christian and the particular form of racism against Christian under the governments of Hamas? And also, because you lived in the West Bank, in West Bank also. So in the West Bank, I wouldn't say there was discrimination.

I think there is quite clear sense of what Palestinian nationalism is beyond religion and beyond what your faith or ethnic background or whatever. As it comes to Hamas, I don't think there is necessarily a target of Christians in Hamas. We weren't targeted.

It's the opposite, actually. We were protected by Hamas forces. But there was an alienation of the Christians, an annihilation of anyone really who doesn't adhere to Hamas' Islamist point of view.

And that's a problem that I think political Islam has everywhere, is that they never really reckoned with the question of what the national identity beyond Islam is, especially in countries like Jordan or Syria or Palestine or Egypt that has a significant that has a significant number of Christians that were very instrumental to the foundation of the state. I think Hamas didn't really answer this question. They made the Palestinian identity and the Islamic identity sort of conflate, and it leaves no room for people like myself who are Christians.

But also, it leaves no room for secular Muslims who are culturally Muslims, but they don't really believe or adhere to political Islam and its agendas. And I think this has left a lot with a sense of alienation. And one can say that, to an extent, it is a discrimination policy, right? Because when you annihilate someone, a group, you want them as the other.

You sort of create that. Now, during this war, we've seen Hamas changing their slogans. For example, for the first time, Hamas' spokesperson talks that Israel targets the mosques and the churches, et cetera.

But I don't think that's changing in the political theology of Hamas as much as this is just messaging to the world to gain more solidarities. Yeah, there is a struggle on that. Now, when you mentioned the whole Judeo-Christian civilization, I mean, to me, this sounds funny.

What does this even mean, Christian-Judeo-civilization? To me, I understand that there is a connection on the sense that Christianity and Judaism basically, at the very beginning, came from a similar tradition and similar faith, and we believe in a similar Bible, the Torah, et cetera. But when this language is usually used, it should be used to refer to the West and Israel, and specifically to Israel's relationship to it. I mean, the Israel lobby is single-handedly responsible for pushing this as much as they can.

When you look at it, I've told someone who believes in these ideas, who interviewed me a few weeks ago, if anything, I think Israel practices paganism and it turned to the pre-biblical tradition of human sacrifice. I mean, you could see it. I mean, if you want to talk about Judeo-Christian values in the sense that are biblical, there is no way in the world you could deny the personhood to the extent Israel is proudly doing it.

But what Israel is doing today is denying the personhood, the idea that there is such a thing as person, from my point of view, is an invention of the Christian tradition. Before that, it was some sort of a collective right.

Today, Israel is saying the personhood doesn't exist, both in their word and in their actions. When they say all the Palestinians are responsible for October 7th, you're negating the personhood and the personal responsibility. When you say that the collective punishment is okay, when you say that killing kids in Gaza because their grandparents is Ismail Haniyeh, they killed the kids of the grandparents, sorry, the grandsons and daughters of Ismail Haniyeh were like four or three years old because the grandfather.

This is not a Judeo-Christian civilization. This is literally paganism. You could see it out there and I think anyone who's genuine and who takes his Christian faith seriously or his Jewish faith seriously cannot comprehend and accept that that's connected to Christianity or to Judaism in any sense.

Thank you, Khalil. I have two separate questions, but I want to maybe pursue this line of thought and then go to another side of what's happening, what's been unfolding. It's what, because I'm following you obviously on Twitter and I see your debates with, let's say, the Christian world broadly.

So can you explain to us maybe how do you as Christian Palestinians, Palestinian Christians, how maybe you kind of pose a problem to a very civilizational discourse and a very racist discourse that is held but not by all but some conservative currents within Christianity. Yeah, , I approach conservatives with much more empathy than your average left-wing Palestinian or left-wing activists generally because I really do believe that deeply the racism comes from a place of ignorance and ignorance on civil level. I think it's a theological ignorance and I think it is also like a political ignorance and historical obviously.

Theological because there is an assumption and confusions between Israel and the Jewish people and the Bible and it's literally a mix of something that needs to be deconstructed. And I think that modern, newer theology today has, even in the West, has started showing how this old interpretation of John Darby of dispensations and et cetera proven to be wrong. And I start seeing like the new generation of pastors in America doesn't think of Israel in the same way.

It doesn't mean that they became pro-Palestine but it doesn't mean that they still adhere to Christian science. So that's on the theological level. On the ignorant level, they really don't, they're not aware even of the fact that the Israelites weren't, , they didn't look like people.

rescued and led, as you say, to places where there are hospitals, and therefore, but this is ethnic cleansing, right, obviously, but is it, for instance, asking that the Palestinians in Gaza should be in the Diffah because this is part of their country? Is this a reasonable and strong political claim that you would like people in the world to work for? Is it something that you wish for? Well, I think freedom of movement is a human right, should have been there since day one. This is not a question, but no one should be forced to leave anywhere. But the main ask of the Palestinian people, I do think that the struggle in Gaza is connected to the entire struggle of Palestine, unless the entire occupation ends and it's resolved, there will be another Gaza.

If it's not in Gaza, it might happen in the West Bank, et cetera. The root cause of the problem is the Israeli occupation, and I think, and I wish that they, , I was actually even, obviously support ceasefire and all of that, but I was even annoyed that the entire focus since day one has been about ceasefire, when I think that this long should be in the occupation since day one. And I think that we should have mobilized, not under the word of ceasefire, but under the word of end the occupation.

I think the two parties that are interested in ceasefire only without deal, obviously everyone wants ceasefire, is the Israeli left, who are not really that left, , they just want a ceasefire and then go back to status quo and live God and God peacefully. And Hamas, who want to just surviving Gaza and continue as an assistant. I have a lot of questions, but I will give you the floor.

Thank you, Mithwai. Two most questions. First, about this question of ethnicization.

But, , there is this discourse of Netanyahu with fascistic way. He spoke about civilization of Jewish Christian against Muslim civilization. And what you are saying is completely... And for you, a question about Israel's colonial practice in Gaza before 7 October.

For you, what was the most shocking thing experienced by Gaza and especially by the Christian in Gaza in particular? And similarly, were there any Hamas laws or practices that distinguished between Muslim and Christian and the particular form of racism against Christian under the government of Hamas? And also, because you lived in West Bank, in West Bank also... So, in the West Bank, I wouldn't say there was discrimination. I think there is quite clear sense of what Palestinian nationalism is beyond religion and beyond what your faith or ethnic background or whatever. As it comes to Hamas, I don't think there is necessarily a target of Christians in Hamas.

We weren't targeted. It's the opposite, actually. We were protected by Hamas forces.

But there was an alienation of the Christians, an annihilation of anyone who doesn't adhere to Hamas' Islamist point of view. And that's a problem that I think political Islam has everywhere. It's that they never really reckoned with the question of what is the national identity beyond Islam.

Especially in countries like Jordan or Syria or Palestine that has a significant... Or Egypt, that has a significant number of Christians that were very instrumental to the foundation of the state. I think Hamas didn't really answer this question. They made the Palestinian identity and the Islamic identity sort of parable, and it leaves no room for people like myself who are Christians, but also it leaves no room for secular Muslims who are culturally Muslims, but they don't really believe or adhere to political Islam and its agendas.

And I think this has left a lot with a sense of alienation. And one can say that to an extent it is a discrimination policy, right? Because when you annihilate someone, a group, you want them as the other. You sort of create that.

Now, during this war, we've seen Hamas changing their slogans. For example, for the first time, Hamas' spokesperson talks that Israel targets the mosques and the churches, etc. But I don't think that's changing in the political theology of Hamas as much as this is just messaging to the world to gain more solidarity.

So yeah, there is a struggle on that. Now, when you mention the whole Judeo-Christian civilization, I mean, to me this sounds funny. I mean, what does this even mean? Christian, Judeo-civilization? I mean, to me I understand that there is a connection on the sense that Christianity and Judaism basically at the very beginning came from a similar tradition and similar faith and we believe in a similar Bible, the Torah, etc.

But when this language is usually used, it should be used to refer to the West and Israel and specifically to Israel's relationship to it. I mean, the Israel lobby is single-handedly responsible for pushing this as much as they can. When you look at it, I've told someone who believes in these ideas, who interviewed me a few weeks ago, if anything, I think Israel practices paganism, a return to the pre-biblical tradition of almost human sacrifice.

I mean, you could see it. I mean, if you want to talk about Judeo-Christian values in the sense that are biblical, there is no way in the world you could literally deny the personhood. But what Israel is doing today is denying the personhood.

, the idea that there is such a thing as person, from my point of view, is an invention of the Christian tradition. Before that it was some sort of, , a collective. Today Israel is saying the personhood doesn't exist, not in their word, but in their actions.

When they say all the Palestinians are responsible for October 7th, you're negating the personhood and the personal responsibility. When you say that the collective punishment is okay, when you say that killing kids in Gaza because their grandparents are Ismail Haniyeh, they killed the kids of the grandparents, sorry, the grandsons and daughters of Ismail Haniyeh were like four or three years old because of the grandfather. This is not a Judeo-Christian civilization.

This is literally paganism. You could see it out there, and I think anyone who's genuine and who takes his Christian faith seriously, or even his Jewish faith seriously, cannot comprehend and accept that that's connected to Christianity or to Judaism in any real sense. Thank you, Khalil.

I have two separate questions, but I want to maybe pursue this line of thought and then go to another side of what's happening, what's been unfolding. Because I'm following you, obviously, on Twitter, and I see your debates with, let's say, the Christian world broadly. So can you explain to us maybe how do you, as Christian Palestinians, Palestinian Christians, how maybe you kind of pose a problem to a very civilizational discourse and a very racist discourse that is held not by all but some conservative currents within Christianity? Yeah, , I approach conservatives with much more empathy than your average left-wing Palestinian or left-wing activists generally, because I really do believe that deeply the racism comes from a place of ignorance, and ignorance on several levels.

I think it's a theological ignorance, and I think it is also like a political ignorance and historical, obviously. Theological, because there is an assumption and confusions between Israel and the Jewish people and the Bible, and it's literally a mix, something that needs to be deconstructed. And I think that modern, newer theology today has, even in the West, has started showing how this old interpretation of John Darby of dispensations and et cetera, proven to be wrong.

And I start seeing, like, the new generation of pastors in America doesn't think of Israel in the same way. It doesn't mean that they became pro-Palestine, but it doesn't mean that they still adhere to Christian Zionism. So that's on the theological level.

On the ignorant level, they're not aware even of the fact that the Israelites weren't, , they didn't look like people in Texas, , Arkansas. They weren't really as white, right? And thus, , their assumption of that, , Israel, people who came from Europe, et cetera, and whiteness, et cetera, it sort of intersects, and they bring about certain ideas. And the third is they're ignorant of our existence, the Palestinian Christians.

And, , Christian, one of the core beliefs of the Christians is that the church, which means those who believe in Christ, are the people of God, right? But when you tell me that the people of God, the other people of God, which is Israel, came in 48 to fulfill his own plan, that's theological, and it was to ethnically cleanse the Christians, which, by the way, happened. Many Christian villages were ethnically cleansed. I think when you tell them that, they're shocked.

They will deny it at the beginning. And then when they find out, it raises a very deep theological question that they cannot deal with anymore. So either their theology is wrong, or either the nature of God himself is different.

And I think that's what has been happening. And I tell you that things are changing slowly in the conservative world. I think that the elites are holding strongly to these views.

There is a lot of dirty money involved in it. But I think that the younger generation, even among conservatives, no longer buy the talking point without really questioning it. And it's a positive thing.

Sorry. Sorry, I was muted. Catherine, was I saying you wanted to... I can't hear you.

I'm mute today. Yeah, it was muted. Sorry.

Maybe you can hear me now, right? Yeah. I can hear you now. Montaz, did you want to ask? It was in link with my last question in this same category.

I hope just to add another question about the lack of solidarity between, again, I'm sorry about the question of Christians, between Christians in Israel and Christians in Gaza, and more generally the solidarity movement in Europe with the Christians of Palestine. Why? Because during, for example, the war in Syria and Iraq, we saw the emergence of this right solidarity movement at the level of the discourse with the Christians of the Orient. And in this context, how do you read this lack of internal criticism also of Israeli society and the mobilization for all the hostages and nothing against the genocide and against the Nazi practices of the State of Israel? That's a good question.

I mean, to start with Christians in Israel, we have to understand that 90%, if not more, of the Christians in Israel are Palestinians. So, no, I mean, my cousins are those Christians in Israel, and they're quite similar to the Muslims in Israel, support Palestine and stand with us, but they can't speak. There is about, I think, 15,000 what's so-called Messianic Jews, those Jews who converted to Christianity, but they're not a very significant number, and those tend to be Zionists because that's the only way for them to be accepted, and they're Jews, ethnically.

So I don't think there is, I think there is strong solidarity in Israel from the Christians and very, very, very small minority from Christian Arabs who will go to the IDF or whatever. I mean, it's even smaller than the number of Muslims who do. In the West, I mean, it goes back to the same idea.

Really, there is not really enough awareness of Palestinian Christians in the West. They just don't know. And the second thing is that it is back to racism.

I think they see it as part of some sort of clash of civilization against Islam, and the idea that, , Israel is some sort of represent the West in this game, and they're going to stop with Israel against us. And then the funny part, obviously, that they do not, most of them really, they don't know what they're talking about. If you really push, even their elites, if you really push them hard enough, you'll get from them quite astonishingly a bit of anger.

Thank you. But there is, if we accept public opinion of maybe all the world, who express solidarity who are arriving in Gaza. Not even, there is not a state, except Iran maybe, no states are supporting, are in a way or another, with Palestinian people.

Because we are talking Muslim, Christian, so it's not the point to say it's more a civilization or a racial point of view. But from the states, because it's the first time, I think, that no one states are supporting Palestinian cause, Palestinian people, national idea. Not the first time, but from, I don't know, 20, 30 years, it's the first time, I think.

We know where Americans are, we know where Europe were always not so straight, that American policy. But how do you explain that, the fact that there is no solidarity toward Palestinian from no one state? I mean, Morocco, Egypt, I think, because we always, we often talk about America, Europe, but me, I'm shocked by the fact that no one Arab states are supporting, backing the Palestinian cause. I think that the Palestinian cause doesn't exist anymore, because people of the Palestinian cause doesn't exist anymore, but there is a Palestinian cause, I don't know, as a political thing, not as a historically thing.

But if you have a, because it's the first time, it's like in France, if you express solidarity toward Palestinian cause, it's like criminalized. Really. It's the first time, I think it's, you have to see with internal political chess, I don't know, game, but it's, I think it's absolutely new.

No, I think it's, I think that the Israelis know what they're doing, and they've been working hard for years to build strong cause, to build strong media, propaganda machine that criminalize and shame the Palestinians. That's as low, like we've seen in Germany, that's as low like we've seen in the U.S. In France, too, we've seen the media and what they're trying to do and say. I think all of this happened.

Then, I don't think that Hamas' attack on October 7th and the images that the entire Western world have seen has helped. And I think that Israel took it and circulated it in a way that literally made it seem like if you stand with the Palestinian people means, I mean, the propaganda that they were selling is literally you're standing with rape, although we know that the rape case is now is debated, right? You're standing with the 440 baby who were beheaded, and it turns out that was a lie. You stand out with the killing of children.

So all of this, they literally made a comparison even between October 7th and the Holocaust, which in my mind, even from a Jewish point of view, should have been an Athena, but , that's the discourse. So the question becomes who in the world is interested to be called anti-Semite or to be called Holocaust denial, because October 7th is in the way they talk about it. It's the other Holocaust, et cetera.

So I think there is all of that. When it comes to the Arab world, I do think the Arab world has interest with Israel. It's very clear.

I mean, the Moroccans do, the Egyptians, Jordanians, and others. Plus to them, Hamas has been a problem and is posing a problem to them in Gaza right now and what they're doing. It's causing instability to the region.

And all these, , undemocratic regimes need certain level of stability in the region in order for them to survive themselves. And the fact that Iran is single-handedly the backer of Hamas makes every Arab suspicious of Hamas. And this puts us in the corner, unfortunately.

But I wouldn't say that the Arabs have completely forgotten Palestine, no. They've been trying to take stance as much as they can. Oh, you're right.

I was just talking about states, not about public opinion, civil society, whether in France, in England, and everywhere is backing... Yeah, the Palestinians. Oh, that's a good question. Khalil, we've been talking about several kinds of solidarities and, , religious solidarity or lack of religious solidarity and state solidarity or lack of state solidarity.

And I think all of this is very important. And because in the sense that it's, I think, in my opinion, it's also different strategies for the Palestinian national movements in the sense that, , what you can appeal to and what kind of allies you can build up with your claims and so on. And I want to ask, this is the other side of the question I wanted to ask to you, is you mentioned the Israeli left.

And you say that the Israeli left is not interested really in, let's say, justice. They are interested in the statu quo just to kind of live peacefully. But can you think of potential allies you might have in Israel maybe before the 7th October and after October 7th? Because I think this has been maybe a turning point.

But I want to hear your analysis on that. I don't think it's a turning point. The Israeli society has shown fascist tendencies since years.

It was very consistent in elections. There is almost no changes in opinions generally speaking. The change is, I mean, no, there is not really any change.

I can't think of any really single change. I think what's so-called the left in Israel, represented by Yair Lavid, that's the centrist. Or a little bit farther left is the Labour, Yair Golan.

Yair Lavid doesn't support a two-state solution. He supports more some sort of an apartheid arrangement. Yair Golan does support a two-state solution.

But from his point of view, it's also segregated, not really 67 border, approached really from a superior place, demilitarized, all sorts of conditions that are impossible to be accepted. So there's not really a left in Israel. Maybe there is this 2-3% actual leftist in Israel who are incapable at this point of mobilizing.

This would be the remnant of what used to be called the Merits Party and others. But these people didn't even make it through election. They didn't get even one seat last election.

So it doesn't look really good. Now, as we know, as in any other country, the public opinion shifts. There are ways where we can see a massive movement in Israel, etc.

But I don't think it's possible. Under these conditions, it's impossible to see an Israeli left emerging. I think the only way for it to emerge, it has to come from self-interest.

And Israel doesn't have any self-interest in changing the status quo. Because they're really benefiting from it. I think only through really huge international pressure that will bring about sanctions, that will make the life of others really hard.

I think they might move left. Or they have to see that there's something really bad about it. Think of how Israel got to peace with Egypt.

I hate to break it down to you, but it's through war. That's the only way they came through it. They knew that Egypt is capable of damaging the Israeli state quite harshly.

And they decided to go to peace. So that's the unfortunate reality. I think I have five to ten more minutes.

Yeah, of course. I have another interview in about 30 minutes. I have to get ready.

Of course, of course. Maybe you want to ask some questions? Thank you. It was extremely enlightening, and it was deep and powerful.

Thank you so much for your work, for what you have been saying since many months, and your platform. I think it's very important for many, many people in the world. So thank you so much for that.

And we will be sending the interview, the transcripts in English. And then you can obviously change whatever you want to change. You can add.

You can do whatever you want to do with the transcripts. And then we will translate it to French. How many viewers do you have on your French…? It's not a general media.

But we tend to have, yes, a good readership, maybe a few thousand a month. That's good. That's cool.

Alexa, can I… Because you've talked about interviews you did in Egypt with Palestinian Khalil. No?